Shane
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Posts: 149
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Post by Shane on Mar 27, 2009 13:56:44 GMT
I googled them like you said and nothing came up refuting my points. I didn't say they were the first to use vehicles but the first to have that diversity of them. You can't possibly claim that using the weapon system in Deus Ex in Halo would be better, different requirements for different games. I didn't claim that " having decent graphics" or any of the other points on it own constitutes as redefining the genre, the fact that you say that only illustrates how weak your argument is. You have look at the game in it's entirety try selecting one feature about Deus Ex to show how it redefined it's genre. Redefining the genre means that it influenced a lot of games that came after it and Halo definitely accomplished this.
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Post by Diarmuid on Mar 27, 2009 14:03:51 GMT
Top five: 5 - Rome total war: best of all total war games. 4 - Morrowind: best of all elder scrolls games. 3 - Mass effect: this is the future of gaming, cinematic experience. 2 - Deus Ex: unsurpassed classic. 1 - Half Life 2: if all games were like this I would never leave my house. Haven't played 3 or 4, but the others are absolutely spot on (or at least close enough). Although if Empire Total War was a little less buggy I'd have it in instead of Rome. I googled them like you said and nothing came up refuting my points. I didn't say they were the first to use vehicles but the first to have that diversity of them. You can't possibly claim that using the weapon system in Deus Ex in Halo would be better, different requirements for different games. I didn't claim that " having decent graphics" or any of the other points on it own constitutes as redefining the genre, the fact that you say that only illustrates how weak your argument is. You have look at the game in it's entirety try selecting one feature about Deus Ex to show how it redefined it's genre. Redefining the genre means that it influenced a lot of games that came after it and Halo definitely accomplished this. I was just adressing every point you made and pointing out that most of them were either somewhat untrue or not redefining. Deus Ex actually wasn't really dedefining, now that I stop and think about it, that honour would go to System Shock 2 which was, I think, the first FPS RPG (although the original System Shock may have been the same, possibly). Halo didn't redefine the genre because it didn't change anything fandamental to the genre - Dune II was the first RTS, Wolf3D the first FPS. Shogun is another one that's a little shaky actually, because the campaign map was done in Dune II I'm pretty sure, although Shogun changed it so completely that it could be said to have carved out its own genre (the currently unnamed half turn based, half real-time, strategy, which Dune II couldn't really claim to be a part of). Halo, in my opinion, didn't change anything fundamental enough to claim to have redefined its genre. AI, Weapons, Vehicles were all incremental upgrades. As for the google search, you should be able to find half a dozen FPSs that had vehicles long before Halo, and at least one or two that used regenerative health. And the weapon system from DeusEx wouldn't necessarily have worked in Halo, but something similar could. I don't particularly like the weapon system in Halo though, and I certainly don't think its revolutionary enough to be said to have "redefined the genre". I think that we're getting bogged down in pedantics now though. Redefined to me means utterly changed, you seem to be saying it just means influenced widely. Ho-hum, another argument based totally on silly pedantics.
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Shane
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Posts: 149
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Post by Shane on Mar 27, 2009 14:10:20 GMT
I agree the only reason Empire is not there is that it crashes on average 5 times per use. For example I can't use two fleets and an army, take hungary or negotiate with gran columbia because it just crashes. The A.I is also worse suprisingly and it's way too easy to conquer the world even on very hard.
Edit: The units also typical of a total war game do not respond well to orders often going the opposite direction to the one you intended. Battles have also become more difficullt to win decisively being more meat grinder than anything else. Like in a one to one fight it's almost impossible to get calsulties of less than 20%.
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Post by Diarmuid on Mar 27, 2009 14:34:28 GMT
Lest my earlier edit be lost: Shane, please see above ^^^
And anyone else, for that matter. Although I strongly get the feeling that everyone else has stopped caring at this point.
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Shane
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Posts: 149
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Post by Shane on Mar 27, 2009 14:46:26 GMT
Again diversity of vehicles not just vehicles. The weapon system in Halo was new and worked brilliantly in tandem with the game Deus Ex system or similar would have sucked. Many games have since copied it. You're confusing redefining with defining the genre here you listed all the games that were the first of their kind. That's not what the argument is about. I return to my previous point: redefining the genre means that it influenced a lot of games that came after it and Halo definitely accomplished this.
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Shane
New Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Shane on Mar 27, 2009 14:48:54 GMT
For example splinter cell redefined its genre but thief defined it.
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Post by Diarmuid on Mar 27, 2009 16:00:31 GMT
I would have said that Dune II redifined the strategy genre creating RTS, Wolfenstein redefined the shooter genre creating FPS. I still maintain that we're now being silly and pedantic.
But I'll keep going as long as you like.
And stop with the double posts, or I'll deploy some mod power or other and everyone will know how I lost this argument by reaching for mod powers.
Damn...
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Post by Tom on Mar 27, 2009 17:11:31 GMT
Diarmuid, I know I said that I only used redefined as a buzzword, but the more I listen to Shane, the more I agree with him. I'm not going to get bogged down in arguing though, because I don't think either of you are going to convince the other, and I don't think either of you are going to learn anything from this (thus rendering the whole thing as redundant as competitive debating, in my opinion).
All I'll say, just to throw my two cents in, is that I agree with both you and Shane, but more so Shane.
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Post by Rob on Mar 27, 2009 19:16:18 GMT
Diarmuid, I know I said that I only used redefined as a buzzword, but the more I listen to Shane, the more I agree with him. *Nods head, accordingly.* Extra points for semi non-sequiter hilarity. Good job, Tom. ;D
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Shane
New Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Shane on Mar 27, 2009 20:27:31 GMT
Anyway before I was rudely and cudely banned by that prick Diarmuid I was going to issue a reply: no you're the one getting pedeantic about this, obviously wolfenstein didn't redefined the genre because there didn't exist a genre to be redefined! *Retard noises*
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Post by Diarmuid on Mar 27, 2009 21:38:27 GMT
Emm... Shooters existed before wolfenstein, no? Or were DuckShoot et al figments of my imagination?
You can answer when your 24 hour ban is served.
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Shane
New Member
Posts: 149
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Post by Shane on Mar 27, 2009 22:51:11 GMT
We're talking about fps games not duck shoot you wanker
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Post by Tom on Mar 28, 2009 2:42:14 GMT
This just gets funnier and funnier. Keep it up, guys!
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Post by Rob on Mar 28, 2009 10:09:01 GMT
Here's a good one that'll get Diarmuid going: Favourite licenced, tie-in games? Aside from Spider-Man 2, mine would be - James Bond 007: Everything or Nothing (definitely the best, most definitive and most outrageous Pierce Brosnan-as Bond game. GoldenEye was epic and definitely a much better game, but it didn't come close to making you feel like Bond as this game does) - Batman 1989 for Sega Genesis - The Adventures of Batman & Robin for SNES - Batman Vengeance for PS2 (which is a legitimately good game, don't care what anyone says) - RoboCop vs Terminator for Genesis (and I hear the SNES version is quite good, too) - Die Hard Trilogy for PSOne - Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (fairly decent, if linear. Crushing up Stormtroopers never really gets old) - Lego Star Wars 1 and 2 - Lego Batman (Probably the best Batman ever by default of it being a Lego game)
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Post by Diarmuid on Mar 28, 2009 11:35:32 GMT
I liked the Lego games (Batman and StarWars). And, emm... Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
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Post by Tom on Mar 28, 2009 17:33:16 GMT
Lego games rocked. Bleach games too. Can't think of any others off the tip of my head that I particularly liked though.
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Post by Rob on Mar 29, 2009 16:42:43 GMT
GB - Tetris (simple, addictive and just plain fun) To be fair though, Tetris was around before the Game Boy. Although the PokéMon games are probably the best Game Boy games ever, Super Mario Land is the game that remains the GB game that has captured my heart forever. It was my first foray into the troubled, chaotic world of Mario and his anthropomorphic enemies and for that, I will always love and admire it.
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Post by Tom on Mar 29, 2009 16:51:32 GMT
Tetris may have been around before the GB, but the GB made it possible to bring it wherever you went (whether it be on the bus, into school or even on the jacks).
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Post by Rob on Mar 29, 2009 16:56:35 GMT
Tetris may have been around before the GB, but the GB made it possible to bring it wherever you went (whether it be on the bus, into school or even on the jacks). There's a joke waiting to happen about Tetris shapes and taking a dump, but I'll leave it to someone else.
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Post by hellsbuttmonkey on Mar 29, 2009 19:45:00 GMT
As noone has mentioned it yet, I will drop in World of Warcraft for a game that dragged the MMORPG genre out of the metaphorical parent's basement.
While on the topic of Blizzard, lets throw in Starcraft. How many other games can claim to be a national sport?
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Post by Tom on Mar 29, 2009 19:53:51 GMT
Poor Korea... poor, poor Korea.
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Kweeva Velva
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"New York Herald Tribune! New York Herald Tribuuune!"
Posts: 280
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Post by Kweeva Velva on Mar 30, 2009 19:36:32 GMT
Oh man. I just remembered GTA London. I only got how great it was a couple of years okay, because I got the whole cockney thing. 'You're Brown Bread' and all that.
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Post by Tom on Mar 31, 2009 8:11:21 GMT
The early GTAs did have a certain charm that came with them being top-down (i.e. not being able to see where you were driving etc.). The tank was particularly satisfying in them too.
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Post by Rob on Mar 31, 2009 12:16:13 GMT
The early GTAs did have a certain charm that came with them being top-down (i.e. not being able to see where you were driving etc.). The tank was particularly satisfying in them too. I still think a 3-D version of GTA 2 has the potential to be the best GTA game, ever. It's completely optional what gang you want to remain loyal to and it's set in the future (roughly ten years from now).
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Kweeva Velva
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"New York Herald Tribune! New York Herald Tribuuune!"
Posts: 280
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Post by Kweeva Velva on Mar 31, 2009 16:53:57 GMT
The early GTAs did have a certain charm that came with them being top-down (i.e. not being able to see where you were driving etc.). The tank was particularly satisfying in them too. Not to mention the Hare Krishnas! 8 D
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Post by Tom on Apr 1, 2009 20:09:50 GMT
We need to stay on topic.
Pokémon. Actually the best game ever. Doesn't matter which one you pick, they're all pure gold. What other game will offer the same depth, attention to detail and fun as Pokémon?
I don't even care if you can name any 'better' games actually. Pokémon will always be my number one...
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Post by johnny on Apr 1, 2009 23:44:25 GMT
Not happy with my posts being deleted...
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Post by Rob on Apr 2, 2009 7:54:18 GMT
I think there isn't really anything I hate more in games than when PokéMon appear in the wild, every two seconds, without fail, making a ten second journey into a fifteen-minute one.
But yeah, PokéMon were great in their day. I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more had the market and my life not been completely saturated with it, to the point of destruction. I never wanted to see a Pikachu ever again by the time the franchise faded into the mist.
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Post by Tom on Apr 2, 2009 12:11:05 GMT
I suppose that that was what repels were for, Rob. But I get what you're saying anyway. They did fix this to a large extent in the newer ones. There are more ways of preventing wild pokémon attacking (natures, flutes etc.), there are more reasons to actually want loads of wild pokémon attacking (increased chance of seeing a shiny/seeing a rare pokémon, of which there are much more etc.) and the whole thing is sped up just enough not to make it as tedious as the earlier ones. Plus, I've got a sneaking suspicion that the chance of running into a wild pokémon have been decreased since the earlier ones... but I could be wrong.
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Post by johnny on Apr 3, 2009 0:20:55 GMT
Good points Tom - I choose you!!!
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